Saturday, October 8, 2011

Ask Domus #3 - Regeneration Loss Timing

Been on a bit of a break!  Back now with another RotD email.





Question from Eric Bemus
Domus,

So here is a question that my local group fights about.  When exactly does a model lose its regeneration?

pg. 74 States that as soon as a unit suffers a flaming wound.  Note, that this is not an unsaved flaming wound, it loses Regeneration for the remainder of that phase.

The argument runs that since these are wounds, then any wounds done at the same initiative would therefore not benefit from regeneration, since you do not have to wait and see if any wounds at that initiative are saved or not.

The 2 main cases where this comes into play are 2 Hydras hitting each other and using their breath weapons at the same time.  The other case is when you have a character with a magic weapon in a unit of Flaming High Elves, or even 2 units of High Elves, one of which is flaming, and the other being normal.

Thanks!

My Response


See pg 50 - on the Sidebar - "Drawn Initiative"

Same I Attacks happen simultaneously, though dice are often rolled separately so we can keep everything organized.

Regen loss would only apply to Lower I steps.

Cheers,
Domus

2 comments:

Adam said...

I'm from Eric's gaming group and I guess I'll be the spokesman for the opposing view.

First off, the "Drawn Initiative" sidebar on page 50 is in reference to when players on different sides have models striking at the same initiative step. This is just an organized way to roll the dice and not get everybody confused; it really has no bearing on the issue at hand. The sidebar for “Fast Dice Rolling” on page 41 actually has more bearing on the issue as far as the sidebars go. This could represent attacks at the same initiative step of which some are flaming and other are not.

Regardless, I don’t really consider the sidebars to be actual rules per se; just read a few of them and you’ll come to that conclusion pretty quickly too. The sidebars offer small tidbits more along the lines of designer’s notes, clarifications, gaming etiquette, suggestions and things of that nature. Take a look at the “All the Right Moves” sidebar on page 26 to illustrate my point. But I digress...

The core issue of the argument revolves around the rules for Regeneration on page 74, the last paragraph, “[…] if a unit is wounded by a Flaming Attack it loses the Regeneration rule for the remainder of the phase […]”. The verb here is wounded. Keep that in mind as I change gears here for a minute.

When you fire a volley in the Shooting Phase, or resolve attacks for an initiative step in the Close Combat phase, these things are resolved at discrete steps:

1. Roll to Hit
2. Roll to Wound
3. Take Saves
a. Armor Saves
b. Ward Saves
4. Remove Casualties

At step 2 you roll to wound and if successful the model is wounded (or suffers a wound); see pages 42 and 51. At step 4 after all saves have been failed the model takes an unsaved wound (or a casualty); see pages 45 and 51. The wordage is actually pretty damn consistent throughout the Shooting and Close Combat phases; surprisingly enough for a GW publication I know.

Getting back to the Regeneration interaction with all this, because of the wording in the rule on page 74 models lose Regeneration at step 2, not step 4. Now that being said, at step 3 the flaming wounds can be saved. The actual wording for that is that the wound is canceled (or discounted), see pages 43 and 51.

How does all this work in action? Let’s look at a hypothetical situation: A model with a 4+ armor save and a 4+ Regeneration save gets hit with two attacks at the same initiative step in close combat; one is flaming and the other not. Both wound. At this point the model’s Regeneration is gone. The model now gets to take its armor saves. If the save is successful against the flaming wound then that wound is canceled as if it never happened and the model immediately regains its Regeneration. Assuming the armor save against the flaming wound was successful and armor save against the not-flaming wound was unsuccessful, the model would then get its Regeneration save against the non-flaming wound. If both armor saves were failed the model would then take two unsaved wounds with no Regeneration save.

All fast dice rolling aside, if we were to do things 100% by-the-book then all models making an attack should roll to hit at the same time, then roll to wound at the same time, then enemy models make their saves and remove casualties at the same time. As gamers we tend to get a bit willy-nilly with this when it doesn’t matter in the interest of keeping the game moving but we should tighten up our procedures when it does in fact matter.

Domus said...

You provide an interesting counterpoint which really opens up more holes in the rules for me.

Your hypothetical situation invokes a mechanic that does not exist within the rules ("regaining Regeneration within a phase"). You either have Regeneration or you have lost it for that phase.

Using your premise, and a very RAW stance, I could see that Regen could actually be "lost" on the occurrence of any Flaming Wound (Armor save or not - since armor saves aren't mentioned in Regen section of losing regen but "wounded" is (& the rulebook defines wounded as a successful roll to wound....). However, this is gonna get you punched in stomach and have your army case stolen.

Basically, the entire debate comes down to this in my mind.
When is a model actually wounded?

The rulebook clearly tells us that a wound is scored when you roll a wound and saves then later can cancel/discount those wounds.

That tells me, logically, that a wound CAN'T be inflicted until after the chance to save it has occurred. (*there is also no mention of this though in the rules either - I do recognize this)

It's also important to notice that the shooting section numbers the wound resolution process as noted above.

The close combat section however lists all of those items under a singular number 1) Fighting a Round of Close Combat - with un-numbered sub-steps. Does this mean that all of the actions within step 1 occur at the same time and the sub-steps are only there to allow a resolution process that we humans can follow?

This would mean (per RAW) the only wounds that could bypass Regeneration in Close combat would be
a) Wounds caused by a Flaming Weapon in Step 1
b) Wounds suffered by a Failed Break Test, Step 3, (that would normally allow regen) but the model was wounded in step 1 by a Flaming Weapon.

Dizzying, truly.

I wish the guys that write the Magic the Gathering would give GW some lessons. I never have trouble with resolutions in that game.

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